Michael Linklater: The reason why you have two ears and one mouth is because you should listen twice as much as you speak. That’s something you listen, so exactly what you said.

Shaun Majumder: That’s good.

Michael: You just listen. There’s a lot you can learn.

[music]

Shaun: Do you guys realize how much story is going on in our minds at any given moment, how important storytelling is every single day? Sometimes I take it for granted, but that is what drives the human being forward in life. It’s story. We’re always making up stories in our head to make sense of what we see in front of us. Sometimes we’re making up stories to get off of a ticket. It’s like, “Officer, I didn’t see the light. I thought it was a different colour. I’m colourblind. Blah.” You know what I mean? We’re always making up stories. Storytelling is what we’re talking about today, specifically through the lens of truth and reconciliation.

Today we’ve got three amazing guests. We’ve got Sue Heddle, 2026 Canadian REALTORS Care® Award winner and founder of Hockey Cares. We have Mike Downie, documentary filmmaker, brother of Gord. He’s going to be talking about his superpower, which is storytelling through documentary. He and his brother Gord made The Secret Path, which is an incredible story. Then we have Michael Linklater, founder of Boys with Braids movement. He is a powerhouse unto his own. He’s not only an amazing storyteller, he’s also the co-founder of Sohkisiwin Solutions. He’s someone to be reckoned with. You’re going to love hearing all of their stories right now here on REAL TIME.

Guys, welcome. We’ve got a full house today on this week’s episode of REAL TIME. Listen, a big theme is community. Today we invited the entire community for a chat. I am so stoked today. We’re going to be talking about all kinds of amazing themes. We’re getting into some of my favourite topics like storytelling, which is– It’s funny. I was reading a book recently, guys, called The Science of Storytelling. I realized story never stops. It is constant. It’s an important part of another topic that we’re going to talk about today, which is reconciliation and the Canadian story.

I think we have three of the best possible guests that we could have. Michael Linklater, do people call you Mike, or is it always Michael? Because Mike Downie is always around saying, “I was here first. I get Mike first.” Michael, what do people call you mostly?

Michael: Depends how close you are to me. Some people will call me by my nickname, but most people call me Michael. but either works.

Shaun: What’s your nickname?

Michael: My nickname’s Chooch.

Shaun: Oh, I love it.

Sue Heddle: Oh, I like that.

Shaun: [unintelligible] called Chooch?

Michael: Yes.

Shaun: Where did that come from?

Michael: Long story short, my mother was a part of the Sixties Scoop. She ended up getting taken and she was adopted to Trenton, New Jersey. I was actually born in New Jersey. After a few days after birth, I caught a choo-choo train to Thunder Bay, Ontario. When I arrived, my great-aunt is the one who raised me. Her late husband used to call me choo-choo boy because I came all the way from-

Shaun: Came on the choo-choo.

Michael: -Trenton, New Jersey from a choo-choo train. As I got older, Chooch stuck.

Shaun: I love it. Is it tatted on your neck somewhere?

Michael: No.

Shaun Majumder: That’s a great name, man, Chooch. May I use Chooch in a movie if I write a movie or TV show? It’s a great character name.

Michael: Absolutely. By all means, please. 

Shaun: I love it. Listen, guys. We have a lot to talk about today. First, I want to go through every one of you. Let’s introduce ourselves. Tell us your story. What’s your background? Professionally first, and then maybe a little bit about yourselves. Of course, I want to start with Sue Heddle. Sue, tell us who you are.

Sue: Hi. I met both you and Mike recently when I was in Ottawa because I’m a REALTOR® and I won this year’s Canadian Real Estate Association Volunteer of the Year. It all started with Hockey Cares, which is– I always get a little emotional because it’s 10 years that we’ve been going, and also, it’s 10 years since we– We were the first to ever receive grant money from the Downie Wenjak Foundation. That is what catapulted us forward.

Michael: I love that.

Sue: I’m forever grateful. We’ve been doing this for 10 years. We brought a lot of youth together. Lots of youth playing hockey, getting to know each other. Real relationships have been formed, and it’s been great.

Shaun: That’s amazing. Hockey Cares, really, is it mostly a regional thing or is it national? Is it going international? Talk to me about the–.

Sue: Shaun, I want it national. I want Hockey Cares national. I want to pair communities across Canada. Right now, we’re national because we went to Kugaaruk, Nunavut this year, the furthest we’ve ever traveled. We went from Ontario, 17 hours north, took two days to get there. Oh, my God, it was amazing. We are looking to do it again this year. We’ve got tons of friends that we’ve made. Kugaaruk is amazing. The kids and the communities are still talking to each other.

Shaun: Oh, I love it. Tell me what is Hockey Cares? Hockey Cares, obviously, it sounds like it’s a thing where different communities come together through hockey. Tell me more about it.

Sue: Okay. Hockey Cares, we’re a reconciliation project under the umbrella of True North Aid. What we do is we bring Indigenous and non-Indigenous youth together. We don’t have them come in a tournament against each other. We do skills and drills. We form Team Fire and Team Ice, and then when they’re on the bench together, they really get to know each other.

The community from the north will come here first to Oakville. We’ve done recently in St. Catharines. They come here. They learn post-secondary education opportunities, focusing on the trades. A lot of kids, about 80% drop out of high school. We’re trying to think about keeping them involved in post-secondary education and also something that they can do in their own time. Return to the community and have a skill or a trade.

That’s a portion when they’re here. Of course, we all have a great time. We do three games, and then Team Fire or Team Ice wins. Then we go up there. It’s a real mind-blower for the kids who are from the south to, all of a sudden, have to live without access to clean water, who have to live in maybe not adequate housing, and understand how everybody lives up there and how the kids are more- I don’t know what to say. They’re more steeped in traditional ways.

Then when the kids up north actually get to show, “This is what I do every day. I go fishing. This is what I do every day,” they don’t understand that what they have is something that they can share and then they’re proud of it. It’s been a really, really great eye-opening experience for not only myself, but all the youth over the years who’ve really come back to the program. They’ve gone through the program and they want to come back and help. It’s been ongoing. It’s great.

Shaun: It sounds like something like Hockey Cares, on its face, oh, it’s hockey, it’s communities, it’s people playing hockey, Indigenous, non-Indigenous, but that’s just a ruse for really digging in deep and connecting people and sharing their stories, is it not?

Sue: 100%. If we’re going down the story theme, yes, 100%, because there will be youth that know story from their grandparents or from their elders that then can share it with our youth from the south. They realize that they have something that’s very valuable and they can be very proud of that. When before, to them, it was just a common thing.

Shaun: I think we take it for granted. You take it for granted, what you live is what you got, especially in the day of digital portals where we look into another universe through our devices, and we’re like, “Whoa, what’s out there is so much more than what’s right here,” but in fact, what you have in front of you has great value. Do you find it harder to shine a light on that value because of the digital world now? I’m talking about remote communities, smaller communities.

Sue: Remote communities are plagued with suicide and that’s why we do what we do. Youth see a world that they think exists and some of it does, but a lot of it, as we know, everyone on social media, they’re always putting their best foot forward. They’re not going to show the bad day that they had. Social media pressures with kids bullying each other, in the olden days, you go home, you close the door, it stops.

When they go home and they turn on their phone– and especially when you’re in a tiny community of 1,000 people, it’s like you’re living in a big high school. When you go home, the bullying doesn’t stop. That’s one of the pressures that they’re faced. It’s one of the things that we strive hard to let them know that we care, we’re here, we’re a strong backbone to support for them.

Shaun: When you put your phone down, you hit the ice and you’re shoulder-to-shoulder on a bench, you connect as a human being.

Sue: I love it when we go up to communities and we’re on the land and no one has their phones. They have their camera, but they don’t have their phone and access to talking to their parents when we’re on a mountain.

Shaun: Mother Nature has a way of connecting people pretty fast. That’s great. We’re going to come back to that, talk more about Hockey Cares and also Sue, your journey. Let’s talk to Michael Linklater. Michael, tell me your story. It sounds like it has taken many different paths and here you are today. Tell me a bit about yourself. You’ve got a sport background, Indigenous, you’re a community leader. Tell me more about your story.

Michael: [Cree language] I greet you as all of my relations and I shake hands with each and every one of you. It’s wonderful to see all of you here. My given name is White Wolf and I’m from Thunderchild First Nations and I’m Plains Cree. In the language, I also shared that I don’t speak the language fluently, but I’m doing my best to learn from our elders.

A bit of my story is my grandparents were part of the residential school system. My mother was a part of the Sixties Scoop, and I was raised by my great aunt. They really instilled the cultural values of our traditional and inherent way of life. I learned about my spirituality as a young person, and that was something that gave me the foundation to be successful in life and all of those teachings.

Something that I’ve carried with me throughout my entire life was, in our language, we say, “Miyo-pimâtisiwin.” That means living a good life. It’s very simple to live a good life. All it takes is kindness to yourself, the conversations you have with yourself, and kindness to others, kindness to your surroundings, and respect, respect for yourself, for others, and your surroundings. The last is love, having love for everything in your environment, including yourself and those around you.

Those teachings have really helped me to get to where I am today. I’ve been a basketball player. That was the vehicle that helped me travel around the world. I won a national championship for the University of Saskatchewan Huskie Men’s Basketball team. I also won a national championship in the Canadian Elite Basketball League. I played professionally on the world tour as well. I represented Team Canada at the FIBA 3×3 World Cup, doing all of this, standing at 5’9″, I’ll say 5’10”, with my shoes on.

Michael: Always from those teachings, being raised by my grandparents, was taught– you’d refer to it as an old way, and that old way of those teachings before colonialism. That’s something I was able to carry with me everywhere I went in life. Very fortunate to have those teachings and to always think about giving back, even when you don’t have much.

You mentioned something earlier that reminded me also what my late father taught me was, each and every morning that we wake up before our feet touch the ground, we need to give thanks for the day, because each and every morning, we wake up to see something that was never promised to us. When you were saying we take for granted the things we have, that’s so true. It’s really important that we start our day off in a good way by giving thanks.

Shaun: When you talk about teachings from your elders, I would imagine there is a sense, in the community, in Indigenous cultures and cultures all over the world, this feeling of the elders as they leave us, that knowledge, it’s going to be harder to pass down. I’m curious about that. That’s such a beautiful story to hear you say that you got that. You were taught by your elders. Your father was a great teacher, obviously. How important is it to maintain that or try to pass that down, including language?

I think that’s a really important part of it as well, obviously. What is your feeling internally about the importance of carrying on those pre-colonial teachings? How difficult is it to do? Are things being done to augment the ability to share those stories and to share that knowledge?

Michael: You touched on something really important, and it’s the language. I use the term “elder,” to make sense of it for all of you. In our language, we say, “Kêhtê-aya.” Kêhtê-aya means wise ones. It has more significance to it because, like you mentioned, when we lose our kêhtê-aya or those wise ones, what is shared with us– When I say, “By the old people,” I’ve sat in ceremony with the oldest people in the community, and the oldest person sitting in that ceremony will refer to the old people. The old people tell us this. It’s always acknowledging those who’ve come before us.

That language component, like I said, it has more meaning to it than just old people. In today’s day and age, when we say, “Old people,” it might be used as degrading rather than something that’s held with high honour. Again, even in the language, there’s prayers and there’s a word in our language that the wise ones will pray for, and it’s for the day that the hair turns white like snow, so saying, “Hopefully to live a full life.” When I heard that, I made a promise to myself that I would never dye my hair because of those teachings from a very, very long time ago.

The old people say, when we lose our wise ones, our knowledge keepers, for us, the theme of this is talking about storytelling. Generations of knowledge exists within these knowledge keepers. When they pass away and they haven’t passed on their knowledge, what the old people say is it’s like a library burning down and taking all of that information with them. It is extremely important for us as- I’ll refer to myself as a young person, but as the next generation for us to attain those stories and those teachings so that we can continue and pass it on to the generations to come.

Shaun: I love that. I think when I say, “The wise ones,” there’s multiple teachings, I’m sure, the practical teachings of the land and how to live with the land, in unison with the land. What I’m saying is you’ve got cultures who are from all over the world that can learn so much from these teachings. I feel like the world would in a much different way if those wise ones and those not-so-wise ones heard those stories and learned those teachings.

Michael: Yes, I agree. Again, in the language, it references to all-inclusive, so niwâhkômâkanitik, all of my relations, means the different cultures, the different beliefs. There’s so much that we can learn from other communities, other upbringings, from their stories, from their experiences, and even the way they conduct themselves through their practices and the way they’ve been taught. There’s something that we can all learn from one another.

Shaun: That’s awesome. We’re going to come back because I want to talk about Boys with Braids, and I want to talk about your active participation in the community and what you’re doing. Let’s go to Mike, Mikey, Mike Downie.

Mike Downie: Hey, Shaun.

Shaun: Tell me about your story. We had the pleasure of meeting at the CREA event as well, and we’ve met before that as a filmmaker in the community. Tell me about your journey, where you’re at right now, and why story has propelled you to where you are in many ways.

Mike: Thanks for having me, Shaun. Fascinating conversation. I’m a documentary filmmaker, and I’ve been making documentaries for about 30 years on Canadian stories, most recently, a documentary series about The Tragically Hip called No Dress Rehearsal, which, obviously, it’s about my brother Gord Downie and his band, The Tragically Hip. A very, very important subject to me.

I was so honoured to have the chance to try to tell that story and to try to understand what it was about this band, these five high school friends, and how they came to really represent something that’s really hard to put your finger on, I think, for Canadians, but this idea of who we are. Then on the other side of the mirror, or reflecting that, is to try to figure out why so many Canadians really saw something of themselves in that band. That was just a great honour to be a part of that.

Before that, I’ve had a chance to make all sorts of documentaries, including an animated film about Chanie Wenjack that Gord Downie and I did along with the Wenjack family. That’s 10 years ago now. That is part of a trilogy of three films really about that story of a little boy running away from his residential school in 1966.

Out of Secret Path, again 10 years ago, Gord Downie and the Wenjack family decided to start something that would grow out of Secret Path, which was the Gord Downie, Chanie Wenjack fund, just a reconciliation fund with the aim of bringing Indigenous and non-Indigenous people together to create a better, more equitable country. That’s 10 years old as well.

That’s definitely the things that have been the most important to me over the last 10 years. I feel so fortunate. I think as Canadians, we don’t do a great job of telling our own story. I feel like that could be changing. Maybe it is. Today more than ever, we need to be not only telling our stories to each other, but really believing in them, investing in them, and maybe having a bit more of a quiet confidence about those stories and their merit and value today.

Sue: I just want to mention. 10 years ago when Gord was on the final tour, it was a national wave. I remember driving up to Kingston for his last concert. Unfortunately, I didn’t have tickets, but we were going to be at my friend’s cottage. All the way up there, every radio station was playing Tragically Hip. It was just this energy. My kids even were getting into it. I felt that again this summer. I felt it coming back. His legacy and the fact that you’ve been able to maintain it, it’s huge. Canada is so grateful for what you’ve done to keep Gord’s spirit alive.

Mike: Wow. Thank you, Sue. I really appreciate that. I wouldn’t have it any other way. Thank you very much.

Shaun: I love that. When I think about purpose, it’s funny, we don’t know necessarily what our purpose is as individuals. It takes a while to figure that stuff out. There’s something about all three of you guys having a focused purpose now in your lives. Mike, how much of an impact did A Silent Path have on bridging the gap, which I’m sure– It’s still a big gap. My gut tells me there’s still a big gap in understanding what reconciliation is and where we’re headed with that. Tell me about the impact that that had on bridging that gap of understanding.

Mike: Secret Path, Shaun, was– the way that we looked at it at the time was that the story of Chanie Wenjack was a story known by Indigenous people from every part of this country. They have a member of their family, just like Michael, who had been a residential school, who had experienced all this firsthand. When this all started for Gord and I in 2012, we heard the story, we just felt there’s got to be a lot of Canadians that don’t know the story of a single child going to a residential school. They may not have even heard of residential schools as I hadn’t 14 years ago in 2012.

We certainly knew, even before the Hip’s final tour, that Gord had the ability to reach a lot of non-Indigenous Canadians. Our idea was just to tell the story of one child. Maybe that could help open people’s minds, eyes, and hearts to so many more children who went to residential school and to their families as well. At the time when we were working on The Secret Path, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was ongoing. The final report wouldn’t come out for another several years until 2015.

I think that we just felt that if we could just bring some more people into conversation just by hearing the simple story of a 12-year-old child trying to go home to where he’s loved, that maybe we could bring more non-Indigenous Canadians into the conversation and maybe make them pause and think a little bit about it. That has happened for many Canadians. There’s many more that I would love for them to start walking that path.

For Gord, it was really important. By the time Secret Path came out, Gord had a terminal diagnosis. He didn’t know how much time he had left. When you talk about purpose, it’s a great example of the purpose, I think, that he felt knowing that he had a limited amount of time left, and that he had reached a lot of people with his music, but he had this one last piece that he really wanted to deliver on, and that was to bring non-Indigenous Canadians into this conversation and to get their attention. It’s been a very rewarding experience just to be a part of it, Shaun.

Shaun: That is such a powerful story on both fronts, the actual story of Chanie and also the story of you guys trying to bring it out to the world. I think that’s so important. Michael, I’m curious about when you think about your purpose. Have you thought about that? Do you think through the lens of a singular purpose or multiple purposes? I don’t know how old you are. You’re just out of university, aren’t you? 

Michael: Yes.

Shaun: No, but for real, have you thought about that?

Michael: Yes, I thought about it a lot. My purpose is to– it comes from our teachings. When you visit a place, you need to leave it in better condition than when you arrived. My purpose here for this borrowed time that I’m living on is to make this world a better place before I get called home to the spirit world. It’s not a singular. I recognize the opportunities, the privilege and the blessings that I’ve been gifted. It’s, how can I leave those doors open for those who are following behind?

It’s not a singular by any means. We operate as a collective. Some of those teachings have been lost, but it’s something that has always been with me. It’s like when one person wins, we all win when it comes to us as Indigenous people. It’s really important that representation matters. The fact that I’m sitting here with all of you is really important because it shows that representation piece. When you take a look at your own personal lives, how many people like me do you see in the circles that you operate on a regular basis? From my experience, it isn’t as much as I see others. That representation piece really matters. I think about it as a collective, not as an individual.

Shaun: You seem to have activated community and representation with Boys with Braids. Why don’t you tell me about Boys with Braids?

Michael: You see pictures when you google residential school systems. Mike was speaking about it earlier where– For me, when I grew up, I used to hear the stories because I was raised by survivors. I heard the stories every day. To me, it was just common knowledge, which is what I thought. Everybody knew about it. To me, it was almost the opposite of Mike’s story. He had no idea about it, and I knew all about it growing up as a kid. I made the assumption that everybody knew about it because that’s how I grew up, and you don’t know what you don’t know.

Understanding that at a young age, and then recognizing that a lot of people didn’t have that understanding or that knowledge was something that was really eye-opening for me. Understanding the history and before the residential school systems, you see those pictures where the first thing that happened to our ancestors when they were forced into the residential school system was they had their hair cut. They were shaved.

For us, when I was talking earlier about our spirits, what I was taught is that our hair is an extension of our spirit, and it comes out in a physical form. It’s a living part of our body, and it’s taught to be respected.

As a kid, I was always taught to be proud of my culture, who I am and where I come from. I was always taught to respect my hair. The way it was taught to me as a kid and how you teach kids is that your hair is a sacred part of your body, or it’s a private part of your body. You’re taught to respect it in that manner where, as kids, you teach them about private parts. That is a private part of the body. You don’t go up and touch someone’s private parts including their hair, because it is something that is very sacred to us.

When I grew up as a kid, I was being teased and bullied for having long hair and just wanting to be proud of who I was. There came a moment where I wanted to cut my hair, and not because I didn’t like my hair or I didn’t like the teachings and I wasn’t proud, but it was because I didn’t like the bullying.

Fast forward, I have my own kids. You ask how old I am, I’ll be 44 in September. I have four children. My oldest is 22. My next is 19. I have 18-year-old and a 15-year-old. I have two boys, two girls. Both of my boys grew up with long hair. They were coming home from school telling me the same thing that I told my mom, is that I wanted to cut my hair. My mom told me, she said, “Don’t cut your hair.” She goes, “When you get older, you’ll thank me.” I said, “Okay.” I didn’t cut my hair, and I just persevered through that.

When my kids came and told me that, I was like, “I can’t believe this is still happening. This is over two decades later, and the same thing is happening.” You were all through this process with me as well, but we saw the era of social media when Facebook came along. During that time, I seen a lot of other parents posting about the same struggles that I went through as a kid, but that their kids were currently going through. I decided that something needed to be done. I remember posting and saying, “I’m going to do something about this and not just talk about it.”

What I did is taking from our teachings and the way we conduct ourselves or the way we gather, and we talk about storytelling, is when we come together, there’s something significant that happens. Before we come together and we have an important gathering, we start off in a good way. In our language, we say, “Ospwâkan,” and that’s the pipe. We had a pipe ceremony before the first gathering of Boys with Braids.

My belief is that we called back the spirit of the hair. The way I created this gathering was nobody had ownership over it and nobody has ownership over it. Boys with Braids is really a campaign. It’s a movement. It’s not an organization. It’s not a legal entity. Nobody has ownership over it. The first gathering I had, I did it with no money.

There wasn’t a title sponsor that could be associated with what it was because the foundation of it was the teachings, to teach the community about the significance of our hair, but to also encourage and inspire these young warriors to continue on their journey- even though it’s difficult and the teasing that’s happening with them, to continue on their journey, and by bringing in knowledge keepers to share those teachings, but also role models who they can aspire to be like.

Since that happened in 2013, there’s been gatherings as far as New Mexico, California, all the way out to Ottawa and everywhere in between. Nobody owns Boys with Braids. To me, the way I visualize it is it’s a spirit, and any community can call upon that spirit. We basically have a template of what this gathering can look like, but when you go from community to nation to nation, some of those teachings vary. We give them an outline and they can make it whatever works for their community.

Typically, you see males with shorter hair and you see females with longer hair. Generally, which I know I guess I shouldn’t generalize, but women typically have a stronger intuition than men do. That intuition is there innately, but for us, we believe our intuition also comes from our hair because it’s an extension of our spirit so it heightens our awareness, which is why, somewhat, can be explained why women have better intuition than males.

Shaun: I love that. It’s too true.

Sue: I love it too, and I totally agree. 

Shaun: It’s too true. That is so cool. It’s happening all over North America, the Boys with Braids?

Michael: There’s a gathering in California that’s coming up, and it’s going to be their 10th annual that they’re hosting. What happened was after my first gathering, I believe it was in 2013, there was a gentleman that reached out from Winnipeg. He’s like, “I seen this event. Are we able to do it?” I was like, “Absolutely, it’s all for you.” He brought it online, so he created a bit of a platform for it. Then from there, it just exploded. Then there was a gentleman in California, and he reached out. He’s like, “Can we do this?” I was like, “Absolutely.” Just shared the template, but said, “Make it what you want, what works for you.” I’ve been invited to various communities to also share this from my own personal experience. It’s really wonderful to see.

The other thing, too, is when we go to events, especially adults and kids and parents, even when we’re walking in grocery stores and the kids are playing, innately, that’s what we do, and it’s a part of our experience here, living on this borrowed time as human beings in this form, is to enjoy our time here. When kids are playing, we’re like, “Hey, be quiet, settle down.”

When we have these gatherings, we have an opportunity for kids who look like one another, that see others with long hair, and they’re just allowed like, “Play,” because some of them are too young to hear some of the teachings. The teachings are more there for their caregivers to understand how to care for their hair, some of those teachings, so when the time’s right, they can pass that knowledge on. The kids, it’s just for them to gather and play, to see one another, looking like each other. You see the pride that just glows within them. To me, that’s so heartwarming.

Shaun: Mike Downie, you’ve got short hair. Clearly, you have-

Sue: No intuition.

Shaun: -zero intuition.

Mike: I don’t know where this is going. 

Shaun: Of course you don’t. Mike Downie, isn’t that amazing? What are some of the things that you’ve learned as a non-Indigenous person by learning the stories, by hearing the stories, that have changed you in some way?

Mike: Listen, I really have a strong feeling about trying to bring non-Indigenous Canadians into conversations just like this. My whole thing is that for reconciliation, which is a really hard idea to explain, or even figure out exactly what it is, but at the Downie Wenjack Fund, we really talk about just encouraging people to start walking that path towards that, towards reconciliation, towards a fuller understanding of Indigenous lives and worldview and everything, language.

One of the things I’d like to add to that is to say, as a non-Indigenous Canadian, you do that for whatever motivates you to do it. Just know that this isn’t medicine in our sense of the word. There’s something waiting for you. There’s something that you’re going to learn. We all just did right now, just listening to Michael’s story about- I have no idea about the significance of hair. The idea of getting involved in reconciliation is like, do it for yourself, almost. You are going to experience and come to understand such a bigger world around you that we have really had access to for hundreds of years and have simply chosen to ignore this opportunity.

I really do believe that bringing these two solitudes together is so beneficial. I think about some of the things that Michael said just in this conversation. With the context of the sped-up digital world that we live in, and yet so many of these teachings, not only are they relevant today, still relevant, they’re probably more relevant than ever. I really feel like the idea of the average Canadian getting involved in reconciliation, it’s like there’s something there waiting for you. This isn’t just about you trying to do the right thing. There is something there waiting for you that will help you continue to evolve as a person and see your life for something much, much more than probably what you’re currently experiencing.

Shaun: Yes. I grew up in small-town Newfoundland. I’m a biracial guy. My dad was from India. My mom was from Newfoundland. Newfoundland’s relationship with Labrador is a very complicated one as well. The Indigenous people in Labrador, the Inuit people, we hear a story. You hear stories on the news. You get one funnel of a story. Those stories are all perpetuated by corporate non-Indigenous people. You just go, “Oh, that’s their story. Then you’re like, you have these experiences.

My most powerful experience, I think, in my life to date in terms of shifting a perspective and understanding, just a little glimmer of understanding into their story was when I had the pleasure and privilege, and it was an honour to be a part of the Canada C3 during the Canada 150. It was a ship that went from Toronto all the way outside Newfoundland up through the Northwest Passage down in Victoria. We did Lake Six, and we went from Nain to Iqaluit. My bunkmate was Natan Obed, who is currently the leader of the ITK. I had no idea who he was. Everybody was all in a tizzy about this guy. He looked like– I’ll be honest, when I saw him at the airport, I was like, oh, he’s like an Indigenous youth. It was terrible how I was thinking about it, but I was.

I was like, “He’s going to be put with the CBC personality, and we’re going to hang out.” Little did I know who I was going to be bunked with was one of the most spiritually connected, most powerful, intelligent human beings. I became so little in his presence of listening and hearing his story. It shifted my whole understanding by learning the story, the actual stories of resettlement and the church coming. Similar to what you were saying that the residential schools had to cut the hair up there. They weren’t allowed to practice throat singing or their traditional dance.

It was just like, “Oh my God, I didn’t know any of this. Now that I know it, my brain has completely shifted.” Those are my steps on that path. I didn’t know I was going on that path, but the one thing I did learn, the most important thing I took from that, was it’s not passive; it’s an active listening. All you need to do is open up and listen and maybe ask some questions and allow yourself to enter into that by starting the conversations like we’re having here.

I don’t think a lot of non-Indigenous Canadians think to even make that first move towards saying, “Oh, maybe I don’t know.” You know what I mean? That’s a big thing, I think. People who go, “Oh, wait a minute, maybe I should listen and try to ask more questions.” If they talk to Michael or Sue about these stories, it would shift your brain completely.

Michael: I was going to say that you’ve mentioned something, and I’m sure you’ve all heard it, but it’s something that’s been taught in our communities for the longest time. The reason why you have two ears and one mouth is because you should listen twice as much as you speak. That’s something you listen, so exactly what you said, right? You just listen. You just listen, and there’s a lot you can learn.

Shaun: Oh, yes. Yes, that’s important. That’s important. Sue, what’s it like when we talk about reconciliation? Let’s talk about that for a minute. What does reconciliation mean to you? How do you see it– I wouldn’t say practically playing out, but what does it mean to you, reconciliation?

Sue: Reconciliation, well, I call it reconcili-action. I’m actively working towards making connections with people, Indigenous and non-Indigenous people, every day. One of the good friends of mine who’s on our board is Plains Cree as well, as you, Michael. I’ve learned a lot from her. I’ve learned a lot from the youth. The most important thing is that we are actively working towards something. We are opening our eyes and our ears and listening and seeing what’s going on. We cannot correct the past, but as a settler, I feel a weight on my shoulders to actually apologize, officially apologize for what went on.

I cannot change the past, but what I can do is go forward by trying to bring everybody together and understand each other. Hopefully that the stories do not get lost, but it’s something that we should never forget, but it’s also something that we have to work on every day.

Shaun: Yes. How about you, Mike? Mike Downie, what’s your thought on reconciliation?

Mike: What does it mean? To me, I think it means, or the way I choose to be involved with it is to try to encourage as many Canadians as I can to find their own path forward. People ask sometimes through the Downie Wenjack Fund, “What can I do as a non-Indigenous?” I think typically, our response is probably best to stay in your lane. Presumably, you have a job or your children are in school, and find out what is going on where you go every day to improve the lives of Indigenous people in this country and create greater awareness of what those lives are like.

I think it’s important for people to find their way forward. There’s three steps, something that we talk about at the fund for people that do want to get involved, and it really is– the three steps make a lot of sense. It’s awareness, and then education, and then action. I think it can be a real settler preoccupation to try to get to the action, that you always kind of want to come in with the fix. It’s really important to understand and to educate yourself and to figure out how you can be an asset, how you can help.

Typically, I really feel like moving forward, it’s going to take millions of us. This is something that has gone on for centuries. There is no quick fix, but the commitment of millions of Canadians right now can make a difference, and all moving in their own singular, but moving towards this idea of a more equitable country, a place that Indigenous people can someday feel proud of.

Shaun: Yes, I think for non-Indigenous people, there’s a feeling, obviously. It can be an uncomfortable conversation because, number one, there’s, like myself, some of it I don’t understand because you’re so busy in your own lives, but then there’s an uncomfortable conversation to be had. We need to be okay with that feeling of being uncomfortable because that’s the way in, because it’s not a pretty story when we look back, but it doesn’t have to be the only feeling that we have.

Mike, what would you say to non-Indigenous people who are there and want to start those conversations, but they feel terrible? Really, they don’t know if they– I think from that place of feeling terrible, there’s a feeling of a defensive mechanism right away, too. It’s like, “Well, I wasn’t there. I had nothing to do with it. Why should I get involved?” Or, “Yes, I feel terrible, but I don’t know why I feel guilty, but I feel like I’m supposed to feel guilty when I don’t know why.” You know what I mean?

It’s a complicated thing for a lot of non-Indigenous people, and some who have immersed themselves really understand it, and then they can speak. As Mike said, there’s awareness and education there, but a lot of people, they’re so busy in their lives on TikTok doing whatever they’re doing, they’re not really there. Mike, what would you say to that and how people can shift their perspective or what would you say?

Mike: Well, I think, for starters, guilt and shame are very useful. That’s what holds them in that same place. Yes, I think that you need to be active. You need to go through those steps of making yourself more aware of what we’re talking about. I guess that’s definitely the truth, part of Truth and Reconciliation, that you need to have a greater awareness of what is happening in this country. Then you need to educate yourself. You need to read. You need to watch documentaries. There’s more and more material coming from Indigenous producers every day that help tell this story. You need to go on your own journey.

Then the third step, as I mentioned, is then to find your way to take action, to be a part of it. That is, there isn’t a prescription for that. That is, you’ve got your own abilities, your own special powers. You need to go through those steps and then move towards something. Like I said, I think, ideally, you stay in your lane. You find out what is going on, where you work, in your industry. Then you can maybe perhaps find a way to start to move that in a newer direction, in a direction that has more awareness of all sorts of Indigenous suppliers, all sorts of ways that you can shift a business towards something that will benefit, in the end, all of us.

It is a personal journey, Shaun. It really is a personal journey. What I like to think is that there are so many resources. The Downie Wenjack Fund does a really good job on our website and in the outreach that we do to create these resources to get people, to get them in front of non-Indigenous Canadians. They have to take that first step. As I mentioned, the great thing about it is you take that first step, and you keep walking, you are not going to walk alone, and you are walking towards something that is going to be of great benefit to you and your family. You are going to really benefit in this idea of something that is so much bigger. Not so much bigger than you as an individual, but so much bigger than the way that we interpret the world.

Shaun: Oh, great. That’s amazing, Mike. Thank you, Mike Downie. Now, Mike Linklater, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on the same question.

Michael: I think it’s really important what Mike shared in terms of understanding that it is a personal journey. It’s really sad to say, but it’s the truth that it’s actually more impactful when somebody who’s non-Indigenous is speaking about what we’re speaking about. For far too long, we’ve been made to feel like second-class citizens in this country. People see us, politically incorrect term, as the angry Indians that are always complaining. That’s something that has been indoctrinated into us as Canadians because it’s embedded in the very fabric of this country. The reason that none of you understood or were taught about the history was very intentionally because of the way this country was created.

We talk about “reconciliation,” and that is a big term that’s being used a lot, but the most important part is being missed in that word. You need to use the full term: truth and reconciliation. When we talk about storytelling, when we talk about understanding, when we talk about learning, it starts with truth. How reconciliation came to be was all of the residential school survivors came, and they shared their truth in what happened to them. Listening to the survivors, they said what was the most impactful thing to them is that finally they were believed because for far too long, when they told these stories before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission came about, nobody believed.

That was one of the most impactful things, and now a lot of those survivors have passed on to the spirit world, and so they’re not getting a chance to see the legacy that their truth coming forward is going to have for the generations to come. We use the term so freely: reconciliation- what does that mean? I urge and encourage people to use truth and reconciliation because it starts with the truth. Shaun, you mentioned it. It is a truth that these are difficult conversations. Mike mentioned it, that it’s so important that this is a personal journey, and when you stay in your lane, you don’t have to answer all 94 calls to action.

It’s important that you understand where is your industry, what do you do, and how can you make an impact. If you’re not public or forward-facing, it’s just as simple as understanding the truth and the history. When it comes to, I’ll just speak to treaties briefly, is that I know that this past summer in the Mi’kma’ki territory, they just recently acknowledged the Peace and Friendship Treaty that was brought in agreement over 300 years ago. It was just a simple treaty to my understanding of a relationship. For us here in the plains, Treaty Six territory, we just commemorated the signing of Treaty, which was 150 years ago.

Now, understanding what Treaty is it’s a mutual agreement. When negotiators from the Crown came to meet with the different nations, they negotiated in terms of walking alongside one another and existing mutually beneficial. Through those agreements, it was agreed that we would live alongside each other, mutually respecting one another. What happened in the signing of Treaty Six in 1876, the same time the Crown, or the federal government, was creating what was called the Indian Act, which is still in existence today.

A lot of people don’t know, but up until the amendment to the Indian Act in 1951, it was still illegal for us to gather in more than groups of three. Now think about that. Think about in recent times, six years ago, how everyone was up in arms, that the government was saying you cannot gather with your family during the pandemic, how upset people were. This was law for our ancestors. Not only that, you mentioned in your experience on your trip with the gentleman that was your bunkmate, we weren’t allowed to practice ceremony as well. It was illegal. It was also illegal for us to own land, for us to have legal representation.

When you see all of these settlements that are being settled now, it’s because the federal government and the Crown have been in the wrong from the beginning. Now, people see Canada, and they don’t realize that because of treaty, we have a country because our people were never defeated. It was an agreement that we would live together alongside one another. All of the benefits that Canadians have is because of Treaty. With that treaty, there’s something in there in the written agreement that is called the surrender clause.

There’s a wonderful book called No Surrender: The Land Remains Indigenous by Sheldon Krasowski. He was a researcher. What he did is he compiled all of these private notes from people who were at the signing of Treaty, from priests, from nuns, from people who are witnesses, taking their journals, their personal notes, as the kids say these days, the receipts. He compiled all of this information, and nowhere was there ever any discussion about a surrender clause.

Sue: Interesting.

Michael: That was added in there. It was talking about all the benefits of what this would be, but they never talked about any of the repercussions. That was something that was, if you will, snuck in there. Now, you know how, no shade to used car salesmen because they get a bad rap, but when you get about like, “Hey, this is going to be a great vehicle for you, all of this and all of that,” but they leave out in the fine print that you’re on your own as soon as you drive off the lot.

It’s similar in that way where our people were taken advantage of. Today, a lot of people don’t know the true history. There’s a number of books out there, a lot of resources, as Mike mentioned, that Canadians can do. It’s just simply understanding the truth because in the media, that is where we are, as Indigenous people, overrepresented in all of the wrong places. That’s what media, in general, Canadians see, and they don’t understand the history and what we went through, and why you see our relatives on the streets struggling, why you see substance abuse, why you see the incarceration rates, missing murdered Indigenous women, and the list goes on and on and on. It’s because of the residential school systems and the intergenerational trauma that has been passed down.

Shaun: Yes. That’s why, even talking to Natan about that, it’s like for Canada to be a holistic country, a true country, a true whole nation, this piece has got to be heading in that direction. The truth part, the acknowledgement, because that’s the other thing too. I don’t think we can acknowledge the history sometimes because it’s a hard history. It’s terrible. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around sometimes when I think about human beings treating human beings in that way. I’m an idealist. You know what I mean? I’m as broad-shred; the world is one, we are all human beings living on this planet, and we need each other. However, it’s hard for people to wrap their heads around that sometimes.

Michael: It’s uncomfortable. Three of you alluded to that earlier. Those conversations are difficult, but they are very important.

Shaun: You got to have them.

Michael: Very important to have.

Shaun: You got to have them.

Michael: Very important.

Shaun Majumder: I found humour is a way through that. On the ship, I swear, we were able to get through some of the most difficult situations by acknowledging the discomfort, but then there was a humourous way to come out of that where we were all laughing. We may not have agreed on certain things, but it was the humour that opened the doors to connection. It was wild. It was like, we need to be okay with finding humour. I don’t mean making jokes. I’m talking about we as human beings, humour is very unique to us. We can connect through humour.

Michael Linklater: Laughter is medicine.

Shaun: Laughter is medicine. Sue, tell me about– this is a podcast that’s a real estate podcast. Primarily, this has been one of the best episodes, by the way. I’ve loved this conversation; so important. As a REALTOR® and thinking about community, give me a little bit about that in terms of your activation as a REALTOR® and how you see that that can be your superpower and being able to engage.

Sue: As a REALTOR®, community is important. Business doesn’t drop on your lap. You have to be out there engaging with the community, whether it be doing sports, whether it be through your kids, whether it be through a knitting club, whatever. That’s where you get to meet people. The bigger your group, then the bigger access you have to potential clients. I’ve never gone about real estate in that way. What I did was I founded a group, Hockey Cares, of like-minded people that wanted to do something primarily about youth suicide in the North that people don’t like to talk about. It’s a tough, tough topic, but it’s something that I found unacceptable. I knew I had to do something, and so hockey was the catalyst.

Power of a hockey mom: get stuff done, get people rallied. We found a group of people that wanted to make this happen, and then we connected with Indigenous people. At first, it was Attawapiskat, then it was Constance Lakes First Nation. Now, we’ve gone to Kugaaruk, Nunavut, but people that want to use hockey to bring us together. It really is like it cuts your tension with a knife because you get kids, put them on a bench, and next thing you know, they were nervous, but now it’s like, “Oh my gosh, this is my teammate. I got to support this person. Oh, look, this is a person supporting me,” and they become friends, and really get to know each other because they’ve helped each other during a game.

Shaun: Well, let’s get Hockey Cares super nationally, all over the place, every community. I love that.

Sue: Well, it would be wonderful if we could pair communities, so then people grow up together. Like Oakville paired with Attawapiskat, and then everyone from Attawapiskat knows everybody from Oakville. It just keeps growing from there. Then you get to really know someone from another community. You’re not guessing how their lifestyle is. You’re not guessing about what their perspective is.

Shaun: You’ve seen it. You’ve been in it.

Sue: You live it.

Shaun: Yes.

Michael: Sue, when you get a chance, google Maple Creek and Nekaneet, Saskatchewan. Very similar to what you were sharing. They have a community game. Nekaneet is the nation. Maple Creek is right there, like stone throw away. Every year, they have a hockey game, and it’s the adults, and it’s called Cowboys versus Indians. They dress up, and they’re dressed in it. It’s just a fun thing. Just what you’re saying, it brings those communities together.

Shaun: Oh my God.

Sue Heddle: They’re playing against each other?

Michael: They’re playing against each other, but it’s in fun. It’s not in competition. They’re dressed up as cowboys, and they’re dressed up like olden days. It’s just like, Shaun, you mentioned how important laughter is. It’s just a time for both communities to come together and just enjoy a fun game for entertainment.

Shaun: I love that. Mike Downie, before we head out, your production company, Courage Films, what stories do you think are the next stories that you’re excited about telling, whether it has to do with reconciliation or not? Tell us a bit about your work upcoming as a filmmaker, as a storyteller. What do you got going on?

Mike: I’ve got a couple of pretty cool projects in development. The one that I’m probably most excited about is next year is the 25th anniversary of the Canadian men’s and women’s hockey team winning gold in Salt Lake City. It’s actually a really complex story that, of course, the men hadn’t won in 52 years. The women, which was shocking, but it made sense when I thought back, were only playing in their second Olympics. It was only the second time Salt Lake City was where women were allowed to compete for gold in hockey.

It was a very, yes, great Canadian story. There was so much cross-support between the men’s and the women’s team. The men, all millionaire hockey players. The women, the first time that they actually had the funding to all come together in probably about four months out from the Olympics, where they were given a stipend, which was not much money, but they were all able to move to Calgary and be a team, not just be showing up from their corner of the country in time for the next game. A very interesting story. That one, I’m doing with Hockey Canada. That’ll be coming out next year on the 25th anniversary. Really excited about that.

Shaun: That’s sick. That’s going to be great. I love it.

Sue: I love it.

Mike: It should be good.

Shaun: Then finally, Mike, tell me about your– you also have a– Tell me about Sôhkisiwin.

Michael: Sôhkisiwin Solutions, we are a strategy integration firm. I think it was mentioned earlier where Downie shared it’s difficult for Canadians to answer calls to action or wrap their head around it. It’s the same for organizations, companies, corporations to answer calls to action. We created a company that helps these companies integrate the calls to action into their corporate structure. Sôhkisiwin Solutions- my business partner and I, we go in and we create frameworks and strategic plans. I think it was mentioned earlier; we work with the organization for them to stay in their lane.

We ask them– They are a part of the strategy, not us coming in and saying, “This is what you should do, or this is what you have to do.” They say, “Okay, well, this is what we want to embody, and this is what speaks to us.” Very fortunate to work with CREA, and they’re very adamant about truth and reconciliation and answering calls to action.

Shaun: Awesome.

Sue: That’s great.

Shaun: People can see that. Is it just sohkisiwinsolutions.com? What is the website? Give us the website.

Michael: Yes. People can check us out, sohkisiwin.com. On our website, you’ll see a lot of information and a lot of the organizations that we worked with. If anyone is interested, reach out. It’s more than–

Shaun: Tell us–

Michael: Sorry, go ahead.

Shaun: I was going to say, tell us the meaning of the word.

Michael: In Cree, it’s a Cree word, and it means strength. We give strong solutions to a lot of these seemingly difficult questions, and we walk alongside organizations to do their part.

Shaun: I love it. Guys, this is such an amazing conversation. I am so thankful to have been a part of it and to bring us all together today. In closing, I just have to ask which hockey team are you guys all rooting for this coming hockey season? It’s very important.

Sue: Well, of course, I have to go with the Leafs. I know it’s very painful. It’s painful.

Shaun: It is. It’s a painful relationship. How about you, Mike?

Sue: It is.

Shaun: What about you, Downie?

Mike: It’s Boston Bruins all the way, man. All the way.

Shaun: Okay.

Sue Heddle: Oh, no.

Shaun: Maybe you’re a basketball follower, Michael, or basketball or hockey. What’s your pick? Who’s your team this year?

Michael: This might upset all of you, and I apologize in advance.

Sue: Not another US team.

Shaun: No, let’s hear it.

Michael: I do not have any team in any sport. What I really like is watching good games. I don’t care-

Sue: I like that.

Michael: -who is playing or what. I don’t have a loyalty to any team in any different sport. I just love watching a game. Then when it comes down to playoffs, I decide who I want to cheer for based on the story. It’s like, “Oh, this person hasn’t won a Stanley Cup before, or this team hasn’t won in this many years,” or et cetera. I just like watching good games.

Shaun: I would say, yes, would I have ever thought that I’d be going for Cape Verde in the World Cup? You know what I mean?

Shaun: That was the story.

Sue: That was great.

Shaun: I was like, go Cape Verde, Cape Verde, all the way.

Sue: We would do the same thing.

Michael: Okay, bandwagon.

Shaun: Guys, this has been a great conversation. I know we have to go because Sue’s battery is going to die.

Sue Heddle: I know.

Shaun: Thank you all. This has been amazing. Keep going, keep with the stories. Please, if there’s any way, we should all support each other in this journey on this path. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. It’s been a great chat.

Michael: Thank you.

Sue: Thank you.

Mike: Thank you.

Shaun: That was a little bit different, and I loved it. I loved all of it. I think it’s really, really important to have these conversations on all platforms, no matter what your background is. I’m just so thankful to hear their stories and to get some insight and to learn along the way. I thought Michael’s point about it not just being about reconciliation, but we can’t forget truth and reconciliation.

To support what all of our guests were talking about today is go out there and learn more truth, become educated, share stories with others, hear stories from others. This has been a great catalyst for me. There’s a lot of calls to action happening in my mind, and this was a great conversation. I really hope you enjoyed this talk today. If you liked the episode, please tell us by giving us a like or a subscribe on your favourite podcast platform. We always appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and production courtesy of Alphabet Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. Hope you enjoyed this episode, and we’ll see you next time on REAL TIME.